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Post by TerranigmaFreak (admin) on Aug 19, 2003 8:33:19 GMT -5
Ok I just looked at the Thracia 776 growth charts and compared Leaf's with Othins. Heck I'll give you a few more characters.
HP St Mag Sk Sp Luk Def Build Leaf 70 35 10 35 40 40 25 15 Fin 60 35 5 30 35 45 30 10
Eyvale 30 15 10 15 10 25 5 5
Marty 80 40 5 20 30 30 30 30
Othin 85 30 5 25 35 55 25 25
I'm sorry, Leaf's a sucky leader? Then doesn't that mean Othin and Fin are both useless shit? Am I missing something here? Leaf beats Othin in EVERYTHING but luck. Either Leaf doesn't suck, or Othin does suck. Or maybe whoever made that growth chart was on drugs. My advice is don't trust growth charts. Leaf has always been a decent or better unit for me. I don't know why people thinks he's a sucky leader. They obviously didn't get it from this chart. Othin has always been an excellent character too. Sorry I'm ranting but I just really don't see the point of growth charts and Stu keeps bugging me to put them up.
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Post by Satoshi on Aug 19, 2003 9:29:08 GMT -5
Well.. compare to the rest of the lords, Leaf isn't as good as them. =P
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Post by Eaichu on Aug 19, 2003 9:54:02 GMT -5
Leaf's growth rates may be better then Othin's, but this doesn't really mean anything. Why? Realize a couple things;
1 - Leaf's stats start out sucking royally. His class(Lord) is one of the worst in the game, with hardly any advantages at all.
2 - Othin's growth rates are lower, but he gets a stronger class and better weapon variety. This is what makes him stronger than alot of characters overall. He starts out powerful, has one excellent skill, and manages to obtain the Puche as his own exclusive weapon. Does Leaf have any of this? No.
Growth rates for most characters in this game are pretty slow. Aside from those that depend on their high growth rates to become powerful(Carrion, Kein, Alva, Robert, Amalda, Delmud, etcetera.) what matters more is the variety of skills and how powerful their class is. Getting exclusive weapons also helps out in usefulness overall, especially in the case with Othin, Delmud, Felgus, and others.
And you can't say "Don't trust growth charts.", they have a way of extracting these from the game. You're aware that these ARE how the characters actually grow in the game, correct? If you think I'm wrong, look at PegasusKnight's growth rates for Fire Emblem 4, then try looking into the FE4 editor. You'll see that everything they've said is right on the mark.
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Post by TerranigmaFreak (admin) on Aug 19, 2003 10:54:14 GMT -5
Most characters start out sucking royally. I wasn't at all impressed by anyone's stats when they first appeared, but that might be because of too much FE4. I don't see why you think the lord class has no advantages though. It's a pretty well balanced class. Like Andy in AW, he has no real specialty but that in it self is his specialty because he's well balanced(not as balanced as Eliwood but you get the idea).
Umm... how about his Hikari No Ken? And Blagi No Ken? Those don't count as exclusive weapons? Well ok Blagi No ken can be used by anyone with Holy Sword User blood but still it's given to Leaf first. I don't see this weapon variety that you're talking about. Othin can only use axes from the start(swords after class change but it starts at E or was it D) and yes I know he does have better starting stats than Leaf. Othin has better skill... sorta. The Wrath Skill don't work the same as FE4 though. To be honest, anyone can have kickass skills in this game cause of the skill scrolls.
I know characters grow that way, but you're forgetting that it's random. It may be programmed into the game, that doesn't mean it'll do just that. I checked a lot of charts and I usually find thing that made me wonder what the hell's going on. Chad has a 50% strength growth but I was tearing my hair out everytime I played Chad. Another perfect example would be Carrion. For me he is the most reliable when it comes to pulling off critical attacks. Guess what, the stats don't say a thing(his critical is not higher than most people) about that and neither does his skills. I think there's some strange glitch within the game. I am the only one who sees Carrion go crazy(I mean CRAZY!) ever single game yet other people just find him solid but not crazy like my Carrion. Just taking what's there in the book isn't the best way to learn, you should combine it with your own person experience. BTW, according to the book, Delmud kicks major butt as Beowolf's kid yet most people don't like him while I'm the only one who agrees with the book.
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Post by Eaichu on Aug 19, 2003 14:52:57 GMT -5
Leaf and Marty are the highest among the characters that have the lowest base stats in the game. This is the main reason that Leaf usually proves to be invaluable, because while his growth rates aren't too bad(Most characters don't grow that well in this game. There's a perfect reason for this, because all stats max out at 20 instead of around 30-25.)
Lords.. are terrible. This doesn't really help well with the fact that Leaf doesn't get too much of a stat bonus when he first joins. Take a look, these are the base stats for a Lord in FE5;
[HP - Strength - Magic - Skill - Speed - Defense - BLD -] 18 - 4 - 0 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 5
There's only a few classes that are inferior compared to this. All characters grow rather slowly in this game, so this will make it hard for Leaf to catch up to others while they're already quite ahead.
Yes, you're right, growth rates are random. However, certain characters have a higher chance of gaining stats whereas others do not. This is the reason why Jeigan usually ends up terrible compared to others despite his high stats, and the same goes with Dagudar, Eyvale, and many others.
Most characters critical often for me. It depends highly on your skill and luck(Not sure.) rates. It also depends highly on the enemies that you're fighting, too, because some of them have far lower resistance aganist critical attacks then others. If Carrion manages to max out certain stats before others, then he'll be on a psycho rampage, and the weapon also depends too, since there's quite a few that give critical bonuses.
Delmud as Beowulf's kid is very good. One of the best pairings that you can get with Lachesis. Only problem with this pairing? Awkward starting stats, Delmud ends up VERY lopsided in many areas, but he can grow to be very powerful.
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Seti
FESSer
Traveller of the Dark Wind
Posts: 3,072
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Post by Seti on Aug 19, 2003 17:21:33 GMT -5
Whoever said Delmud sucked as Beowulf's kid? They just don't like the Beowulf x Lachesis relationship in general Delmud is pretty good as a cannon fodder.
And what do you mean by Carrion is crazy for you? If you mean cricticals alot than mine does it all the time. But then again almost anyone can crictical alot with a half decent skill and also a Kill Sword. In general the Lord class is no better than all-round average thats how main characters have always been in any game they're usually the most well rounded character in the game. But Leif starts with some pitiful stats if it weren't for the fact everyone maxes at 20 Leif would seriously be pitiful compared to everyone without any scrolls and boosts and his own sword.
Added with that doesn't Leif get the Noba Blood bonus? Or is that not counted in FE5?
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Starwolf
FESSer
Noooo ... I'm oxidising
Posts: 685
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Post by Starwolf on Aug 19, 2003 18:05:10 GMT -5
Fe5 has no seperate Holy blood. I geuss Holy bloods are accounted for in the growth rates. If this is right thats Leafs gains with Noba and Baldo blood accounted for.
The growth rates only opperate on whats in the random number generator also, scrolls mean that every character has potential (I should upload the Marty screenshot to prove this).
Maybe the RNG is acting lucky for you. The growths rates mean lots but its time , place circumstance. Eg if someonme has good stength growth they have to be a class with a need for strength (ie not a mage). Leaf starts with 18 hp he needs everything. My Leaf has always ended quite good, just able to beat Leidrick but not Beldo.
As for sucky Lleaders, its tradition. In book 1 of fe3 Marth was only Level 12 (or was it 10) at the end of the game. No wonder he sucked (heck most my characters sucked)
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Post by TerranigmaFreak (admin) on Aug 20, 2003 11:34:57 GMT -5
Oy, you guys misunderstood what I said from the start. What I mean is that growth charts are very misleading.
Leaf 70 35 10 35 40 40 25 15 Othin 85 30 5 25 35 55 25 25
Just look at that. Is that really true? Yeah I guess but is it misleading? Yes very misleading. If you look at it from the standpoint of someone who's NEVER PLAYED THE GAME BEFORE, what do you think will cross their minds when they see that comparison? Even when they play the game, they won't know until they've gone far into the game to fully understand the mechanics. That's why I said don't trust growth charts. Stu keeps bugging me that growth charts are needed. To judge whether a character is strong or not just based on the charts does not work, or at least not very accurate. Now you guys understand what I'm ranting about? Maybe my topic was a bit misleading... but I was in a ranting mood.
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Post by Eaichu on Aug 20, 2003 23:26:18 GMT -5
That's why you're supposed to include base stats with character descriptions(in the case that you include growth rate charts). It isn't possible to tell all the weaknesses and strengths of a character unless throughly explained, but if you decide to use charts, it's proper to include their level, base stats, and growth rates. This can all easily sum up how useful characters may end up.
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NoBaka
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Olympic Fencer in Training
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Post by NoBaka on Aug 21, 2003 15:34:13 GMT -5
Well.. compare to the rest of the lords, Leaf isn't as good as them. =P Actually, I often found Sigurd to be pretty darn sucky.
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Starwolf
FESSer
Noooo ... I'm oxidising
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Post by Starwolf on Aug 21, 2003 16:22:28 GMT -5
Maybe that because the lord knight has horrid stat caps (along with the Duke knight and mage knight): Strength-25 Magic-18 (why? oh magic swords) Skill-22 Speed-22 (just like the choked mage knight) Can't remember the rest but Of course Sigurd will seem bad if his speed is 22 while everyone else had higher. Its nothing about him sucking its about everyone else ruleing (or having better oppitunities).
Thats why with growth rate you have to take EVERYTHING into account. Heres a good example. Bragging about Saphys stength. Or Tinas luck. Or Saras growth. After a few levels her growth is exhausted. Thats a good thing shes a fast to make power unit but ifd you want the slow route go with linoain (hmm maybe i should be writing a character FAQ wiuth phrases like this).
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Seti
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Traveller of the Dark Wind
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Post by Seti on Aug 21, 2003 17:29:56 GMT -5
Maybe you should Starwolf as far as I can see the only complete FE5 character FAQ's around I can see is Eaichu's and Diedrupos's I think...
But if what you say is corrcet Starwolf than the Baldo blood bonus has already been accounted for in Leif's growth but the Noba blood hasn't?
Because as I can see the Noba blood bonus already being counted for is ridiculous as it'd bring Leif down to a Str Gro of 5 if that were the case but if its the Baldo blood bonus than minus 5 in most stats would look about right for Leif. Also leif seems to take after Ethlin more than Cuan anyway.
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Post by Summer on Aug 21, 2003 21:44:37 GMT -5
Actually, I often found Sigurd to be pretty darn sucky. I'm glad I'm not the only one. =P <---often have trouble keeping Sigurd healthy.
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Post by TerranigmaFreak (admin) on Aug 22, 2003 10:12:22 GMT -5
I don't know, maybe it's because my Sigurd always had a speed ring with him. I always left him keep the speed ring you get in the prologue.
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NoBaka
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Olympic Fencer in Training
Posts: 2,155
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Post by NoBaka on Aug 22, 2003 10:18:29 GMT -5
WTF is up with Saphy's strength? What's the purpose?
Great Knight: GRR!
Saphy: Shut it, bitch! :: beats him with the Repair Staff ::
Great Knight: :: dead ::
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