A slightly different pairing question.

[TerranigmaFreak (admin)]

A little off topic but why the heck is Noiche on that list? I don't recall him being one of Lachesis's predestined lovers. I could be wrong though. Or maybe you just felt like shoving every blonde guy into that list. If that's the case, you left out Hollin. I find it strange that someone as prissy as Lachesis would get paired up with Deu though. Oh well, at least we know Deu's not 10 years old.

[FESS Claudius]

I thought someone said something about Aless and his parents in chapter 5

[SummerWolf]

TF : Noiche's one of her predestines in the story sense of the word. He's got a lovetalk in chapter 5 where he tells her he loves her.

Claude : I'm not sure with chapter, but you're right. Sigurd just worried about Aless, however. They never mentioned any details about Granyhe until later on.

[TerranigmaFreak (admin)]

Hmm... I must have forgotten. I haven't done a Lachesis and Noiche pairing since who knows when.

[JacenPrime]

I'm not sure, but I think everyone in the first chapter is pretty much pairable, except for Sigurd, Cuan, and Ethrin...and Finn if you want him to romance in the 2nd Gen...(IMHO, he's better off with a love in first Gen)

[Iris]

JacenPrime said:

I'm not sure, but I think everyone in the first chapter is pretty much pairable, except for Sigurd, Cuan, and Ethrin...and Finn if you want him to romance in the 2nd Gen...(IMHO, he's better off with a love in first Gen)

We know. When we talk about predestined pairs, we're talking about those who actually get conversation events in the game--not all pairs do.

So, yeah, Lachesis is also pairable with Holin or Lex or one of the other guys, but they're not really relevent in this discussion because there's no dialogue and nothing to suggest a pairing.

[ReaperRaptos]

Err...this is something I found on the net. It's one of those links on the Sigurd's Pants website to that translation page.

Anywho, this is from one of the villages in Chapter 5...

Girl: Do you know? The Nodion King Eltoshan had a child with his deceased Queen.
The baby's name is Ares, and is only about 3 ~ 4 years old right now... What a poor thing...

Well, maybe Eltoshan didn't say his wife name with his final words because she's already dead? I dunno, I'm not really in the know about this sorta stuff, sorry if I'm completly off...

[Iris]

I'd forgotten about that. Okay, so they did mention her before Aless showed up. But...it doesn't say anything about when she died, so we don't know that she was dead already when Eltoshan bit the dust. Especially as at least a year has passed between his death and the events in chapter five; possibly more time than that.

It's been a very long time since I've read any of the second gen conversations (I'm a first gen fan, so sue me), but I thought Aless said something about Elto sending them both away from Agustria before he died. But as I said, it's been a while, so I might just be off my rocker.

[North2]

You know, the whole Lachesis deal is incest in a class of itself. Her daughter Nanna........well, in FE5, it's quite implied that she and Leaf are raised like real siblings. (Mareeta : Go ahead, Lady Nanna! [to tell him how you feel] Or do you want to be just a sweet little sister forever?
Leaf (later) : Even though we were raised like siblings, the decision to go save you was from my heart. (sic) )

So in all practicality....they don't have the blood, but as far as living conditions go, Leaf and Nanna ARE brother and sister. And FE5 practically ends with Leaf marrying her. XD

(I'm one of those few persons who don't mind incest, it seems. It's not that bad a concept. It's SOCIETY that made it bad. Humans used to do it all the time until society starts rejecting it around the....well, upmteenth century)

It's stated quite directly that Nanna becomes the queen in the ending, so it's not just 'practically' marrying her. 'Raised like siblings' doesn't exactly mean it was pounded into their heads that they were brother and sister. It only suggests that they were always close to each other. I don't think anyone actually considered them as real siblings, it's just that they grew up together. I'm sure there were some that said 'Aww, you two look like brother and sister', and that's really as close as anyone ever thought of them.

I also think that incest is conceptually not a bad thing if you remove social influences completely, but it has a really bad side effect of having an incredibly high chance of miscarriage or deformity in the child due to the similarity in the genes. I still think it's disgusting though, and I'm not gonna try to remove that feeling =P.

[SummerWolf]

As a geneticist who literally works with inbreeding, I can assure you that most of those fears of deformity are rather exaggerated.

Those things, inbreeding depression, usually don't set in until several generations of inbreeding have passed. Society usually made it sound like people would sprout horns as an F1. The diseases really start happening in around F3-F4.

I don't think Finn pounded it into their heads that they're brother and sister. But I don't think he pounded it into Leaf's head either that he's the foster father and not simply a caretaker. And to me, that's exactly what Leaf thinks. A boy and a girl who can't remember any better were living together with their father figure. It's quite possible that they might liken themselves to brother and sister when they were young, and not necessarily just childhood friends, and they'd both know they're not real siblings. But it's the relationship that counts, not the family tree. I think it's quite revealing when Leaf said he didn't save because they're raised together like siblings, but following his heart on the matter. It implies that in his mind and maybe Nanna's mind, too, they're extremely like brother and sister, but he didn't save her because she's his sister, but because she's Nanna. Leaf was speaking to address Nanna's latent fear, and the only fear she seem to have is this. (Nanna doesn't have a problem with the idea of incest, since she said to Aless that Lachesis loving Elto is fine)

Yes, I know that Nanna becomes a Queen who's somehow called Princess Nanna. XD The word 'practically' is inserted there unconsciously by my writing psyche that was looking for an adverb.

Not trying to change your disgust, but presenting my two cents. You're free to interpret anything the way you think, and that's the beauty of it.

[North2]

What exactly is 'usually' don't happen? I consider even a 1% chance to be quite an influence, considering the percentage of disabled people from birth due to other causes is not that large.

Actually that's the exact same interpretation I have...so I dunno why that relationship is incest in terms of living conditions. They probably liked each other like brother and sister when they were young, until they slowly began to realize that they weren't.

[SummerWolf]

What you think in childhood gets stuck through later psyche much later than one would think. I think Leaf and Nanna didn't really outgrow thinking they're like brother and sister, (Nanna still views Leaf as her brother to some extent, though she wants to step over the boundary and be something that's NOT a sister. That's the feeling I got)

First filial generation? About the same chances as getting one in outbreeding. It depends on the allelles in the genes. Second generation, the percentage gets quite a bit steeper as the genes have a higher chance to attach, but it won't affect offspring vigor yet, not including the possibility of dieases.

And there are a number of other causes leading to birth defects. Exposure to certain things during pregnancy can lead to it. Random chromosomes not splitting the way they should (which happens at a higher rate than you'd think) can cause it. Birth defects are usually caused by genetic defects rather than close-blooded mating, which vigor isn't affected in the FE1 inbred. Genetic diseases are another story of their own, but the chances are quite similar to marrying someone who has the disease/is the carrier. It's not substantially higher. And if a guy loves a girl who's hemophiliac/haemophila carrier who's NOT his sister, you see anyone trying to stop him? No. Because she's not his sister, even if the chances of the child getting the disease is about the same.

And if you consider 1% to be significant, imagine quantitative genetics. XD (Joke)

[North2]

All right...sweet deal.

I dunno what a hemophiliac is, but whatever that means the hemophiliac is a 100% victim of the disease. There's nothing she can do about it, and it's not like having a child with another person will alter the chances. You can marry someone other than your brother or sister though, and if you can avoid it then society mind as well make it a bad thing.

Edit: Also, wouldn't imbreeding add more carriers?

Edit2: Forgot to talk about Nanna and Leaf =P. I also got that image, but it would be about the same thing as childhood friends becoming lovers. It's really in the storytelling world, but both cases just fades out into sweet memories of the past over time. At least that's the image I get.

[SummerWolf]

Not necessarily.

Haemophilia is a disease on the X chromosome. The haemophiliac may know it, but you're in the same position trying to marry a carrier, who won't know it. Same as the sister, who might not have any recessive genes for diseases at all. Those alleles are -rare- in the population. Which means the -genotype- is rare, not just that the -phenotype- is rare. Recessive lethal alleles occur in relative small numbers in a random mating population, which includes a gyuy and his sister. Most of the bad things happen from "Inbreeding depression, really."

And in the case of haemophilia, it won't really add to the carrier.

XcX x XY = XcX, XY, XcY.

The chances of getting a recessive is the same.

Or if we're talking non-sex linked.

AcA x AcA in normal population is the same as brother and sister. 1/2 AcA, 1/4AcAc, 1/4AA.

And there's the chance of either brother or sister being AcA as well, which means. 1/2(1/2(1/2)) = 1/8 chance of being carrier in the F1 generation. That's rather low as far as things goes. (The FE1 generation generally have around this rate of possibility, the chances get lower at increased population size. I'm working on one brother-sister pair from AcA parents here)


Ed : Not the same. Once brother and sister, the image doesn't easily fade. And I'd say being raised by the same guy and being the kid next door are vastly different experiences.

[North2]

It would be vastly different experiences, but I meant that they still end up being a sweet memory of the past so in the end it's pretty much the same thing.

I also got the idea that it's not really a strong image of brother and sister. It would be different if one was adopted, but they were both adopted. There's a limit to how much they can treat each other as siblings when nobody treats them as real siblings. If I recall correctly, I think Leaf said they were raised 'like' siblings, not 'as' siblings. That adds some proof to where Leaf stands on the subject.

I don't know half of what you said about those genes...so does inbreeding add more carriers of genetic diseases? I also think the whole argument that I made about hemophiliac was skipped. Hemophiliacs can't marry someone else to avoid passing on the disease to the child, while a sister can marry someone other than her brother.

Also, what if a woman born out of imbreeding bares a child with a man born out of imbreeding from another family?